Fred Phelps is the pastor of Westboro Baptist Church and the author of, arguably, the most unchristian website in the world. I have written about Phelps before, and regret having to write about him again…but it appears that he and his church have threatened to picket the funeral of Heath Ledger. Why? Good question. Apparently because Heath Ledger once portrayed a gay man in a movie. Was Heath gay? I’m sure we can ask his grieving wife if we can get through the picket line at the funeral.
Why in the world would someone who claims the name of Christ picket a funeral? I wonder what would have happened if Christ had picketed Lazarus’ funeral. Instead of bringing him back to life, what if Christ had stood outside the tomb with a sign that says “God Hates Sinners”? He wouldn’t have, because he’s perfect. Christ came to save sinners, not to picket their funerals. When Christians act like Mr. Phelps, I honestly want to punch them in the ear. Why the ear? I don’t know. It was the first thing that came to my mind. I’m not saying I would be justified in punching Phelps; it would be wrong (but it would honestly feel so right, especially after he said this crap). I’m just being honest. This kind of absolute and utter nonsense being done in the name of Christ makes me want to puke.
I am writing this for anyone who is not a Christian and who is disgusted with Phelps and his actions.
I’m sorry.
What you are seeing is not a true picture of the Gospel, nor a true picture of Christ, nor a true picture of Christianity.
I’m sorry.
As Christians we fail to reflect the person whom we claim to represent. We fail to be loving, when it was he who loved the world. We fail to be humble, when it was he who humbled himself to enter into our history. We fail to reach out to those who are broken and hurting, when it was he who brought healing and redemption.
I’m sorry.
The message of the Gospel is that no matter what you have done, no matter how bad you think you are, no matter what skeletons are in your closet, no matter how worthless you think you are or how worthwhile you pretend to be, no matter how broken you are, redemption is here. Peace is here. Wholeness is here. Healing is here. And his name is Jesus.
29 January 2008 at 8.21 am
I wonder why they don’t picket more funerals. Where are the signs that read “God Hates Gossipers” or “God Hates Adulterers?” When George W. Bush goes to the great beyond, will they be there with signs of “Thank God the warmongerer is dead?”
29 January 2008 at 8.53 am
There are so many false prophets that are really profits of Jeseus Christ. Mr. Phelps is just another example.
29 January 2008 at 10.22 am
It’s just sad. And it is so true that no matter what anyone has done in their lives, Jesus heals that. What an important message.
29 January 2008 at 11.15 am
I think homosexuals are so open, demanding and in our faces every single day in the media and movies and TV while representing only a very small percent of the public that most have become “tolerant” of something that should be and would be repugnant to them.
This “pastor” is probably doing this more because of the way homosexuals ie. “[EDIT: I do not condone the use of the term used here and will not tolerate hateful speech on my blog]” have been accepted into and by society in general and because Homosexuals continue to demand from the public their attention.
I say “burn in hell [EDIT: I do not condone the use of the term used here and will not tolerate hateful speech on my blog]” too and please take your “[EDIT: I do not condone the use of the term used here and will not tolerate hateful speech on my blog] haters”, s and A.I.D.S. with you.
29 January 2008 at 11.29 am
seriously, I really do think he’s gay. And so is the guy who posted above me. I want a shirt that says “God loves homophobes”.
29 January 2008 at 11.30 am
oops, not you art. that always happens whenever I say “they guy above me”, someone jumps in and ruins a perfectly good post.
29 January 2008 at 12.46 pm
Preson: hahaha, I actually deleted my comment because I made some typos (I was driving and trying to comment on my iPhone).
Howard: I have no idea what you are trying to say. Could you please explain.
blanks57: I’m glad that Jesus did not have the same attitude as you are displaying. Instead of coming to earth to point his finger and condemn sinners, he actually sat down with sinners and died for them so that they might be redeemed. Perhaps we should stop using terms like the one you did, stop telling everyone who moves that they are going to burn in hell, and love people like Jesus did. I think that’s probably the best way for Christians to compose themselves.
Christ loved us not because we were perfect, but because he can make us perfect.
29 January 2008 at 1.22 pm
I felt like I got punched in the face when I read about the Westboro church. What sucks the most is that everyday I make an effort to be more Christ-like, and then a church somewhere promotes this kind of trash and ruins all of that.
On a better note, Im a youth leader and I took this issue to my youth group on Sunday. It really got those kids thinking and talking. My statement to them was ” Was the greatest commandment that Jesus left us to JUDGE one another as Jesus has JUDGED us? No, it was to LOVE one another”.
29 January 2008 at 3.25 pm
My husband suggested non fringe Christians should peacefully picket his church with signs of love and words that say this is not our Christianity – this is not Jesus’ love.
Peace
29 January 2008 at 3.51 pm
blanks 57… I am curious as to how you drew the conclusion to make that post following the very clear reasoning and Biblical basis posted by Art. There is never a justification for speaking about people that way who are lost and need to find Jesus. The Bible is clear that we are all sinners deserving of punishment.. Regardless of the sin. Would you have rathered Jesus say.. “No, Father I won’t die for them, Burn in Hell, you lusting heterosexual (I am assuming you are straight although judging by your homophobic comments I am not so sure).”
(Just as a matter of clarification the highest number of people in this world who have HIV/AIDS are not homosexuals its women and children in sub-saharan Africa.) To anyone who is not a follower of Jesus, I apologize for the above persons comments, they do not reflect the heart of God or the teachings in his Word. I usually keep quiet in blogosphere, but I could not keep quiet about that.
29 January 2008 at 3.54 pm
Like Donald Miller said on a podcast I heard a while back, “Stuff like that always gets more press because it sells soap better than grace does.” Phelps is a nut case trying to get attention.
29 January 2008 at 5.31 pm
All I have to say is that unfortunately some of us who proclaim to be Christian need to clean our mirrors to accurately reflect Jesus. How is picketing a dead man’s funeral going to bring people to a saving relationship with Jesus?
29 January 2008 at 7.32 pm
Why are many of us to some degree homophobic? Forget what all the religions of the world say…
How many times are we afraid of something because it is different from each of us individuals?
That’s the reason: we fear that which is different, that which we do not understand, that which we have little or no knowledge of.
29 January 2008 at 10.00 pm
I am very sad that Ledger’s friends and family had to field the ridiculous Westboro crowd at his funeral. But as a gay person I generally consider Phelps a non-issue. He is a living caricature of homophobia’s face. I don’t fear him because I at least know exactly where he stands. The only Christians I worry about are ones like Mike Huckabee who sound genuinely sincere when they say they “love” us and then mock us for wanting to protect our long-term relationships with statements like this one form the Boston Globe:
“Unless Moses comes down with two stone tablets from Brokeback Mountain to tell us something different, we need to keep that understanding of marriage,” Huckabee said, referring to the movie about two gay cowboys.
Have these people convinced themselves that they love us even as they work to keep our families, including our children, at a disadvantage? Or are they just pretending to love us to make themselves look better to their peers?
It is all very confusing to me.
29 January 2008 at 10.54 pm
Troy: I understand your confusion and I value your comments.
I think you bring up a great point: how can Christians say they love the gay community, but then push for legislation that ends up hurting that community?
I wish I had an answer for you, but I’m not that smart.
Some people might say something to the effect of “We have laws against murder, which is a sin against God, therefore we should have laws that protect the sanctity of marriage, because homosexuality is a sin against God.”
While I understand their logic, I also see how they do not follow it and end up being hypocrites. These same people also believe that such things as fornication (sex outside of marriage), gossip, pride, and lying (just to name a few) are also sins. But I don’t seeing them attempting to pass laws against people who gossip, or people who are arrogant, or husbands who cheat on their wives, or college kids who have casual sex.
It’s definitely something that Christians who are serious about their faith, and how that faith is to be lived out in relationships, need to think about.
29 January 2008 at 11.15 pm
That “church” and those people are so much more than just homophobic. Wikipedia has a nice summary of their antics and beliefs. They are beyond crazy. Here is the link to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church.
29 January 2008 at 11.20 pm
Yeah, where do you start and where do you stop? I guess we start and stop with the “sins” we are comfortable with – otherwise, according to the Apostle Paul, 21st century Christian women would always worship with their heads covered, and hats haven’t been the norm in church since the 60s.
At the risk of getting even further off topic, though I’m a Christian I do not believe that someone’s understanding of what is a “sin against God” is enough justification to rewrite our constitution. Murder, rape, sexual exploitation of a minor, these all have tangible victims, no matter what your faith is or isn’t. Loving a person until death do you part? Well, all I can say is I don’t see any victims in our family. We lead a pretty blessed life.
30 January 2008 at 11.48 am
‘I’m glad that Jesus did not have the same attitude as you are displaying.’
You do not even know my attitude because my “right to freedom speech” has been denied and censored by the blogs editor.
‘[EDIT: I do not condone the use of the term used here and will not tolerate hateful speech on my blog]‘
Saying that ‘Jesus displayed a different attitude’ based on this blog’s editor’s pathetic attempt to provoke, is truly hypocritical and very much hate and prejudiced based intolerance. Which the editor pretends to be offended with!
Adam and Eve my friend if your going to bring Jesus into the fray and not Adam and Steve, I’m sure you would know atleast that much from your bible teaching.
30 January 2008 at 12.00 pm
Or do you consider the bible to be hate literature too?
I know in Canada where I’m from that they do as of 2005 passing of the Svend Robinson hate crimes bill, which also makes it a criminal offence to hate peaceful religion in Canada or to fund with tax dollars one religious institution to the exclusion of all others.
Though lets say the hate crimes law is greatly overlooked when it comes to these matters in my country.
Where as homosexuality is continualy having there “rights” defended and even ammended!?
30 January 2008 at 12.53 pm
blanks57: “You do not even know my attitude because my “right to freedom speech” has been denied and censored by the blogs editor.”
I edited your comment because (a) your language was inappropriate, rude, and ignorant, (b) this is my blog and I do not want that term used in a negative manner on this blog. Because I am the one who edited it, yes, I do understand your attitude. Even in the edited form, it’s pretty clear where your attitude is.
“Saying that ‘Jesus displayed a different attitude’ based on this blog’s editor’s pathetic attempt to provoke, is truly hypocritical and very much hate and prejudiced based intolerance. Which the editor pretends to be offended with!”/
The editing of your post had nothing to do with ‘provoking,’ ‘hating,’ ‘prejudicing,’ nor ‘intolerance.’ It had to do with the fact that it is not appropriate to use pejorative, offensive terms. If you want to get your daily fix of typing those words, feel free to open up a Word document and go crazy. But please spare the rest of us from the twisted thoughts and language that goes through you head.
“Adam and Eve my friend if your going to bring Jesus into the fray and not Adam and Steve, I’m sure you would know atleast that much from your bible teaching.”
Adam and Eve/Adam and Steve…I’m not sure where this one came from. I don’t remember attempting to validate or justify homosexuality. I just remember saying that we should love people, because that’s what Jesus did and what he has called us to do. Correct?
“do you consider the bible to be hate literature too?”
The Bible doesn’t use the term that you used, does it? So…your point is?
30 January 2008 at 3.06 pm
I found the FAQ’s on that website to be fascinating reading. I didn’t realize that WBC are actually militant Calvinists. Before, I simply brushed them off as a brainless sideshow, but there is slightly more to it than that. I also thought the idea that it was possibly the “most unchristian site” was an overstatement, but after reading through it I was surprised by the platform from which they launch into their doctrine of hate. Lies mixed with truth, to an insidious degree, can be found here. Here are some excerpts from the website:
“These doctrines of grace were well summed up by John Calvin in his 5 points of Calvinism: Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints. Although these doctrines are almost universally hated today, they were once loved and believed.”
“The word translated “world” in that verse (kosmos) NEVER means every individual of mankind who has ever lived (see, e.g., John 17:9). Romans 9:13 says that God hated Esau, and Psalm 5:5 says that God hates all WORKERS of iniquity.”
“He reveals Himself as having a fixed and immutable determination to punish the finally impenitent with eternal perdition. God’s hatred is not like man’s hatred. His hatred is holy, pure, unchanging, while man’s hatred is a sinful, fickle emotion.”
“Don’t listen to the money-grubbing heretic who stands at the front of your church. Listen to God. If you are one of His elect, you’ll hear.”
“We cannot know for certain that an individual person is in hell (or heaven). Only God knows that. However, we can and should look at all of the available evidence that we have, and make a reasonable assumption. We are under an obligation to discern the signs of the times, and discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5:14).”
There’s lots more on the site, but you can see where they are going with it all in that last quote.
13 February 2008 at 1.12 pm
Isn’t this the beauty of living in the USA? As long as neither slander nor llibel, we can say whatever we want without fear of government persecution!!
Aboutlet: May I help defend your right to censoring?
1) This is your blog, and as Unique Muslimah on her blog wrote, it is like your home. While certainly there will be many things you and your guests disagree about, for them to come in and use foul language or degrading language certainly gives you the “write” to kick them out (i.e. delete their entry or even grammatically correct their language).
2) Commenting is a PRIVELEGE, not a RIGHT. You are the one with the RIGHT to decide what can be published, edited, or deleted. This is NOT a public forum.
3) You have a right to preserve the quality of your blog…allowing defamation to show up can really make you like you allow the promotion of hate speech.
4) The whole free-speech deal is from government censorship. Do I have the right to call my boss some profane name in his face? No!! If I did, I’d get fired.
All these points I got from http://uniquemuslimah.wordpress.com/2008/01/27/the-art-of-blogging.
14 February 2008 at 12.13 am
I think it is sad that whenever a Christian lives honestly according to the Bible’s mandates, they are always dismissed as false prophets or unchristian.
The Bible clearly states that same-sex relations is an abomination. How do you think we should confront an abomination?
14 February 2008 at 12.15 am
Yeah, yeah, peace, redemption, blah, blah, blah.
Your a car salesman selling the car without mentioning the price.
The price is that you believe homosexuality is a sin, and that to be redeemed, one must “choose” to be straight.
You are full of false love and bullshit.
Why not just be honest?
14 February 2008 at 12.41 am
Davidmc: The Bible clearly states that same-sex relations is an abomination. How do you think we should confront an abomination?
It also says that lying, slander, gossip, pride, etc. are abominations. Do you think we deal with those in the same way as same-sex relations? What you are also leaving out is that we are to love, just like Christ loved. Fornication and sex outside of marriage is also an abomination, but Christ hung out with prostitutes. How would you explain that?
Your a car salesman selling the car without mentioning the price.
The price is that you believe homosexuality is a sin, and that to be redeemed, one must “choose” to be straight.
Please let me know where I said this. The fact of the matter is that I didn’t say this. I would appreciate if you would actually read my words instead of stating something that I did not say…and then claiming that I said it. Don’t charge me with dishonesty when you are the one who is putting words in my mouth. That is what is actually dishonest.
And my love is not false nor bullshit. It is sincere and heartfelt. You can say whatever you’d like, but you do not know me and you do not know my heart concerning these issues. If you truly did, you would not have come to such an unjustified, unwarranted, and untrue position.
15 February 2008 at 6.51 pm
Are you saying then that homosexuality is not a sin, or merely hiding within the veil of the unspoke?
20 February 2008 at 1.16 am
Artie… who are these people??
Blanks… haha what an idiot, David is too. You don’t know my brother…. so stop saying he’s full of false love and BS. He’s like the most sensitive loving guy I know and has the biggest heart ever. ANYWAY about WBC…
One thing to know about this church is that there’s only 71 people who go there and about 60 are directly related to Phelps. His children who don’t agree with him, don’t talk to him anymore.
From the mouth of HIS kids (the ones that left… which is 4 of 12) they said he under the illusion that he is the ONLY moral person left in America and the ONLY person worthy of God’s love and going to heaven and if you don’t agree with his ridiculous statements then you’re not a REAL Christian. The church is also picketing the NIU funerals in Illinois. Im tempted to go and hit them… but I’d get arrested, so I won’t. It’s a complete shame. They also waste TONS of money traveling to all these places. They spend about $200,000 a year. It’s totally insane.
AND the state of Kansas passed a law where people aren’t allowed to picket funerals. And Bush passed a law about not being able to picket military funerals… which they were doing. More states are in the process of doing this, so hopefully this will be a moot point before too long.
So for anyone who’s actually read about this church and gone to it’s website, we should all know it’s so silly and it’s basically just a big mixed up family. And thankfully some of his kids have had the sense to not listen to him. And HOPEFULLY some of these young kids will also come to their senses once they grow up and form their own opinions. The saddest thing, to me, on this website are the pictures of young kids holding these signs. It almost made me cry.
I wonder if when one of the people in their own church dies if they’ll picket the funeral??? Well…. it’d be an easy one to picket because they wouldn’t have anyone else to get around.
20 February 2008 at 1.49 am
Hi Aboulet:
I am still waiting to hear whether you think homosexuality is a sin. If you love me so much, I’d expect you not to hide your true feelings.
And JessB, I am sure your brother is an adult and doesn’t need you to protect him. Thank you for calling me an idiot. It really shows your Christian love.
The point is that, so long as you cannot accept who people are, I don’t think you love them. You just “hang out” with them in order to convert them.
I hope to hear from you Aboulet.
David
20 February 2008 at 10.49 am
David: so long as you cannot accept who people are, I don’t think you love them.
This is completely wrong.
When you disobeyed your parents when you were a kid and they punished you for it, did they not ‘love you for who you are’? Was their love any less genuine because they saw something wrong about you?
Jesus loved us, but he didn’t just accept us as who we are. He washed us of our sins and continues to transform us. His love is perfect love, and his love did not simply accept us for who we are…so I don’t find your definition compelling in the least.
Scripture states that homosexuality is a sin. I cannot get around that. It is what God says. I would apologize for it, but it’s God. I don’t think he needs to apologize for anything.
20 February 2008 at 10.59 am
“Homophobes” do need as much love as “homo’s”, maybe even more.
So if your going to love “homo’s” which you should you should or must also love “homophobes”, which is an invented term by the way and not even a real word.
20 February 2008 at 11.08 am
blanks57: I’m glad that you are now seeing that we should love all people, regardless of their sexual preference.
And you are correct, we should also love homophobes as well.
20 February 2008 at 2.21 pm
Is “Homo’s” a real word…or just an invented abbrevation?
I love all kinds of Phobes. Emmmm Phobes.
20 February 2008 at 2.23 pm
also what do the “Homo’s” own, as the issue seems to be English and word structure and genesis now, and the “homo’s” in Blanks post contains a “‘” which usually suggests ownership.
20 February 2008 at 5.39 pm
Hi Aboulet:
Thank you for coming out of the closet. Sorry, your analogy is wrong. Parents love their children, but punish their acts. God created homosexuals and will now burn them in hell forever because of his design. I don’t think that is love.
Maybe you can accept it as love, because you are safe within your God-approved behavior, but you don’t see the hate and destruction you preach.
Also, I have to be pretty suspicious of anyone who would support an ideology that burns people in hell. Something is just not right, if you can support such a notion and still view God as loving.
I don’t think I want the “love” of someone like that.
Again, you really are no different than Phelps. At least Phelps is honest about God’s message and doesn’t couch God’s hateful destruction in soft-selling salesman talk of love.
I hope your eyes will be opened on this issue.
I won’t bother you again with a post, because I understand you are in school, and have better things to do than debate with an unknown person on the internet.
David
20 February 2008 at 8.06 pm
David: I don’t reduce the humanity of somebody to their sexuality. People are people, regardless of their sexual preference.
That is the fundamental level of our disagreement. If you want to reduce the humanity of the gay community to the point where they are simply homosexual, then that is your choice. I, however, do not.
Because of this, I can truly love all people. It is inconsequential if you can understand that or not. The bottom line is that I do love all people, regardless of their sexuality.
And about your comments on hell: hell has to do with justice. If you want to love an unjust god, then you are more than welcome to do away with the concept of hell. I, on the other hand, choose to love a God who is passionate about justice, both in this life and the next.
So, yet again, I am extremely different than Phelps in that I express the love of Jesus to people, not the wrath of God. I hope you can appreciate the difference.
No worries about bothering me. I always find conversation stimulating.
20 February 2008 at 10.13 pm
Art: They may be angry but that is a well argued comment above…if there was an award for well argued and thought out post that would win it…(I would start an award..but what would I call it the “poopies”
Anyhoo. Well done.
21 February 2008 at 12.18 am
Hi Aboulet:
It is not justice when you create someone to have a behavior that you will then burn them in hell forever because of it.
Imagine you are watching a father beat his child because the did what he had trained him to do, yet instead of stopping the father, you keep telling the child that you love him.
Do you honestly expect the child to believe you? Isn’t reasonable for the child to think, “Well if he really loved me, he wouldn’t allow my father to beat me.”
It is a perverse sense of justice to accept this as just.
David
21 February 2008 at 12.35 am
David: It is not justice when you create someone to have a behavior that you will then burn them in hell forever because of it.
I had seen this thinking in your other comment and didn’t approach it. I now see clearly that we are basing our arguments on two different starting points.
Yours, I’m assuming, is that some people are born gay. Therefore, your argument makes perfect sense from your perspective and you have every right to make the points that you made about my viewpoint.
Mine, however, is that people are not born gay. Therefore, my argument makes perfect sense from my perspective and I have every right to make the points I have about your viewpoint.
The question is: how do we get beyond this impasse? Is it going to turn towards the ‘nature vs. nurture’ debate? Or is it going to turn towards the empirical argument (”I know it’s true that people are born gay because I was…”)? Or are you going to turn my question back on me and ask me when I ‘chose’ to be straight?
There are many different arguments and I have heard them all. I lived with one of my really good friends from college for two years. And he was gay.
Do I love him? Absolutely. Would he tell you to your face that I love him? Without question. Do we have disagreements? Certainly.
Based on my experience, the real question, the fundamental question that we need to resolve before any fruitful discussion can happen is whether some people are born gay or whether they are not.
Perhaps I’m missing something (which happens more often than not), but I think that is the real issue.
21 February 2008 at 1.31 am
Art: From a Theological perspective (and Davidmc may not like this)but would it really matter if one were born gay? I mean I was born as near as I can tell completely depraved…Prone to all kinds of sin. Some of which was sexual (I mean the desire to lust, touch and do any woman that moved)…I am also the product of several generations of Alcoholism, so now scientist are telling me that I am more likely to be an alcoholics because of genetics. Still I believe that living the life of a drunk would be the sin. Either way this is not a matter of creation but a matter of the corruption of creation. The reality is that it is not gays alone who are born prone to sin but all of human kind. This is not God’s fault, this is a result of the very human choice of our great grandfather Adam. And we may cry that this bondage to sin because of the actions of our great grandfather are unfair but the sad reality is that given Adam’s choice we all would have done the exact same thing. Now Davidmc may say you don’t love him because you are calling his “lifestyle” a sin, his point of course can only be true if in fact you believe that your own lifestyle without Jesus was not equally sinful. You are not the sinless one calling the unwashed sinful. You are the redeemed sinner loving the still broken from whence you came.
22 February 2008 at 12.39 am
Hi Aboulet:
I don’t think whether someone is born or chooses to be gay matters, because, irrespective of the cause, you will support burning them in hell either way. If they were born that way, you believe God’s power can change them. If they choose the lifestyle, you believe they should repent and change. Either way, you still support burning them in hell forever. I again fail to see the love.
David
PS-Whether you have delusional friends who accept your false love in no way convinces me of its existence. Do you realize the agony your friend is condemned to by your ideology?
22 February 2008 at 5.48 pm
David: “Whether you have delusional friends who accept your false love in no way convinces me of its existence.”
The point was that my love is neither false nor is my friend delusional. It is sincere and he is sane. The derogatory comments of a random person on the internet who is completely detached from my life mean little to me. I have continually been nothing but respectful in my rhetoric towards you. I find it somewhat ironic that you are the one calling for a form of tolerance, yet continually use rude rhetoric aimed at my friends and myself to make your point. We can disagree; let’s at least do that with dignity and respect for one another.
“your ideology”
This ideology is not mine, as if I sat down one day and came up with it. Rather, it is what is taught in the Bible. I believe in the Bible and I believe in God. I am not going to apologize for that and I do not think it is fair for someone who is seeking tolerance to ask me to apologize for it.
Once again, just because you don’t believe that my love is sincere does not mean that it is not sincere. Talk to my friends. They will tell you. Your beliefs bear little affect on a reality to which you are ignorant. If you knew me, if you hung out with, if we had the chance to grab a beer together and talk, then, perhaps, I would take your claims that my love is not sincere more seriously. But you don’t know me David, so please do not make claims about things that you do not know about simply because you cannot understand them. I have not done the same to you.
22 February 2008 at 9.54 pm
Hi Aboulet:
Next time you see your friends, tell them that you supports God’s burning of them in hell for all eternity, and that you think God is just for doing so. I am interested in their reaction.
By the way, tolerance does not mean acceptance. I can disagree with you and want you to change, while still tolerating. I am not going to infringe on your freedom of speech in any way. I believe we all should be allowed to live our lives.
You just happen to believe that some of us deserve to burn in hell forever, and hide this idea behind rhetoric.
Again, I dare you to tell your gay friends that you support God’s burning of them in hell for all eternity. I’d love to hear their reaction.
David
PS (A Big One)-Yes, I shouldn’t have said delusional. I should have simply said that, “Just because your friends believe you love them, does not mean that such love actually exists.”
So, today I was reading a book on logic by Raymond Smullyan, who makes a convincing argument that everyone has at least one set of conflicting beliefs. In this case, I believe the conflict is between saying you love someone and holding to an ideology that they deserve to burn in hell forever. If you can live with such a conflict, then so be it. I cannot. I cannot accept the notion that God is just, because he will torture and burn people forever solely because someone picked the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
David
22 February 2008 at 10.18 pm
David: Next time you see your friends, tell them that you supports God’s burning of them in hell for all eternity, and that you think God is just for doing so. I am interested in their reaction.
They know that I believe this. And they know that I love them. Like I said before, I don’t equate a person with their actions. A person is not simply a “liar” or a “cheater” or a “homosexual” to me. They are humans, who I love, who are also tainted by original sin. I can love people while disagreeing with their actions. It’s as simple as that.
I am not ‘hiding behind rhetoric.’ Again, my friends know what I think about their actions and also know that I love them.
Yet again, you might not agree with that, but (yet again) that does not negate the fact that it is the truth.
“By the way, tolerance does not mean acceptance. I can disagree with you and want you to change, while still tolerating.”
I agree that tolerance does not mean acceptance and that you can disagree with me while still wanting me to change. The irony that I was presenting is that tolerance is defined as ” The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.” Your rhetoric was not respectful in the least. Hence the irony.
“Just because your friends believe you love them, does not mean that such love actually exists.”
Just because you can’t wrap your head around the situation and believe that I am ‘hiding behind rhetoric’ also does not mean that such love actually exists. What you are presenting to me is simply your opinion David. It is not the truth. Yet again, if you actually knew me and knew the situation, perhaps you would feel differently. But the fact of the matter is that you do not know me, you do not know the situation, therefore your ‘beliefs’ concerning the situation mean absolutely nothing to me.
I love my friends. Deal with it.
“So, today I was reading a book on logic by Raymond Smullyan, who makes a convincing argument that everyone has at least one set of conflicting beliefs. In this case, I believe the conflict is between saying you love someone and holding to an ideology that they deserve to burn in hell forever. If you can live with such a conflict, then so be it. I cannot. I cannot accept the notion that God is just, because he will torture and burn people forever solely because someone picked the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
I have not read the book, so I cannot comment. Again, I don’t reduce the definition of people to their actions. Humans are created in the image of God and I am commanded by Scripture to love them. So I do. Scripture also condemns certain actions, so I do not agree with those actions. If you separate people from their actions you do not run into the problem that you are presenting and your argument, ultimately, fails.
I would submit that this is the case. I love my friends, yet disagree with their choices.
23 February 2008 at 1.48 pm
I hope to hear about your friends reactions when you tell them that you support God’s burning them in hell and think he is right to do so. You could even have them post on your blog.
And please don’t couch it as God does not agree with your lifestyle. Be honest. Don’t hide in your rhetoric. Tell the truth like Phelps. You support God’s burning them in hell and think he is right to do so.
I can fully accept that you think you love your friends. Whether this is actually love, because you support burning them in hell, is a larger philosophical debate which I am not ready to willing to engage in. I am persuaded by the large body of literature on human irrationality that we can hold contradictory beliefs.
Again, I hope to hear your friend’s reactions.
David
23 February 2008 at 3.33 pm
David: Maybe you didn’t read my last comment, so let me make this clear.
MY FRIENDS KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE!! We have talked at length about the issue and have debated it for hours and hours on end.
They also know, and correctly fully believe, that I love them.
I can accept that you think you know my situation and that you think you know about my life and who I do or do not love. You have every right to be completely and utterly wrong, especially when you are completely ignorant of the situation.
So, again David, my friends both know what I believe and know that I love them. I do not understand what you are attempting to prove.
“And please don’t couch it as God does not agree with your lifestyle. Be honest. Don’t hide in your rhetoric. Tell the truth like Phelps. You support God’s burning them in hell and think he is right to do so.”
Do you even read my comments? I don’t equate the humanity of people to their actions. Yet once again, people are people and deserve love. I am not hiding anything by my rhetoric. I love the people, but do not agree with their actions.
Please actually read my comments before blowing your lid again. Thanks.